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	<title>Comments on: Men Should Have Say in Abortion</title>
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	<link>http://moorethoughts.com/2007/08/16/men-should-have-say-in-abortion/</link>
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	<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 21:29:42 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Me</title>
		<link>http://moorethoughts.com/2007/08/16/men-should-have-say-in-abortion/#comment-248980</link>
		<dc:creator>Me</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jun 2008 04:47:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://moorethoughts.com/2007/08/16/men-should-have-say-in-abortion/#comment-248980</guid>
		<description>http://www.trueequality.com/booklet/#ReproductiveRights that about sums up everything that I would say.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.trueequality.com/booklet/#ReproductiveRights" rel="nofollow">http://www.trueequality.com/booklet/#ReproductiveRights</a> that about sums up everything that I would say.</p>
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		<title>By: Paris Exposed - Paris Hilton Sex Tape</title>
		<link>http://moorethoughts.com/2007/08/16/men-should-have-say-in-abortion/#comment-172345</link>
		<dc:creator>Paris Exposed - Paris Hilton Sex Tape</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Nov 2007 21:46:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://moorethoughts.com/2007/08/16/men-should-have-say-in-abortion/#comment-172345</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;1 night in Paris Hilton exposed funny&lt;/strong&gt;

Paris Exposed - Paris Hilton Sex Tape</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>1 night in Paris Hilton exposed funny</strong></p>
<p>Paris Exposed - Paris Hilton Sex Tape</p>
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		<title>By: Neo-Malthus</title>
		<link>http://moorethoughts.com/2007/08/16/men-should-have-say-in-abortion/#comment-144454</link>
		<dc:creator>Neo-Malthus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Aug 2007 02:47:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://moorethoughts.com/2007/08/16/men-should-have-say-in-abortion/#comment-144454</guid>
		<description>Fair enough. I really wasn't so much accusing you of referring to women who had been raped so much as I was simply throwing the idea out there, because throwing ideas out is what I do.
The problem I have is that people who are dead set against abortion in all circumstances -- people who may not include you -- are very hesitant to grant rape exceptions, particularly when the crime is not promptly reported, because they are scared that women will falsely claim to have been raped in order to get an abortion.
I don't have any problem with the notion that, ideally, the father should have a say in this kind of decision. My concern is with making pracitical rules that work in the real world.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fair enough. I really wasn&#8217;t so much accusing you of referring to women who had been raped so much as I was simply throwing the idea out there, because throwing ideas out is what I do.<br />
The problem I have is that people who are dead set against abortion in all circumstances &#8212; people who may not include you &#8212; are very hesitant to grant rape exceptions, particularly when the crime is not promptly reported, because they are scared that women will falsely claim to have been raped in order to get an abortion.<br />
I don&#8217;t have any problem with the notion that, ideally, the father should have a say in this kind of decision. My concern is with making pracitical rules that work in the real world.</p>
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		<title>By: Sarah</title>
		<link>http://moorethoughts.com/2007/08/16/men-should-have-say-in-abortion/#comment-144038</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Aug 2007 19:47:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://moorethoughts.com/2007/08/16/men-should-have-say-in-abortion/#comment-144038</guid>
		<description>Yes, Neo, sometimes women really are victims of horrible crimes.  It is utterly ridiculous that you think I am referring to women who have been raped when I refer to women being victims of their own choices. If you care to read my original post, I wrote:

&lt;em&gt;In situations where the woman did not have a choice in sexual activity (such as rape and incest), then the criminal who forced sex certainly should have absolutely no voice in what womb-related actions occur. &lt;/em&gt;

So, if a woman became pregnant as a result of a gang rape, then she does not need the permission of any man to have an abortion.  The same holds true for any type of rape, including marital and statutory.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, Neo, sometimes women really are victims of horrible crimes.  It is utterly ridiculous that you think I am referring to women who have been raped when I refer to women being victims of their own choices. If you care to read my original post, I wrote:</p>
<p><em>In situations where the woman did not have a choice in sexual activity (such as rape and incest), then the criminal who forced sex certainly should have absolutely no voice in what womb-related actions occur. </em></p>
<p>So, if a woman became pregnant as a result of a gang rape, then she does not need the permission of any man to have an abortion.  The same holds true for any type of rape, including marital and statutory.</p>
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		<title>By: Neo-Malthus</title>
		<link>http://moorethoughts.com/2007/08/16/men-should-have-say-in-abortion/#comment-144034</link>
		<dc:creator>Neo-Malthus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Aug 2007 19:16:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://moorethoughts.com/2007/08/16/men-should-have-say-in-abortion/#comment-144034</guid>
		<description>What if she claims it was a gang rape? You may be tired of women being portrayed as victims, but sometimes they really are victims and sometimes it really isn't their choice.

Or try another scenario: she consented but her consent wasn't legally effective because she was too young. In other words, it was a statutory rape, but not a forcible rape.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What if she claims it was a gang rape? You may be tired of women being portrayed as victims, but sometimes they really are victims and sometimes it really isn&#8217;t their choice.</p>
<p>Or try another scenario: she consented but her consent wasn&#8217;t legally effective because she was too young. In other words, it was a statutory rape, but not a forcible rape.</p>
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		<title>By: Sarah</title>
		<link>http://moorethoughts.com/2007/08/16/men-should-have-say-in-abortion/#comment-143856</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Aug 2007 21:27:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://moorethoughts.com/2007/08/16/men-should-have-say-in-abortion/#comment-143856</guid>
		<description>Yes ... if the male is opposed and the female isn't, he ends up with the veto.

Your questions related to promiscuity show that the two-person abortion approval is logistically unfeasible when a woman chooses to have multiple partners over the short period of time during which conception could have occurred.  

How about this?  If a woman lists a man as the father of her unborn child, he has a say in the abortion decision.  If she cannot with definitiveness state the owner of the sperm that has found its way to her womb and therefore she has no father for her child, then she can has the right to make the abortion decision all by herself.  But, she also loses the right to have a variety of guys tested after the baby is born to determine paternity and get child support.  

I am tired of women being portrayed as weak victims of their own sexual choices.  On those ridiculous shows like Maury, I get just as frustrated with the women who slept around without concern for the consequences as I do with the moronic "men" who loudly assert their lack of resemblance to the child and tell the audience that the woman with whom they once chose to be intimate has been naked with every dude in town.  Sounds like bad sex decisions are being made all over the place!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes &#8230; if the male is opposed and the female isn&#8217;t, he ends up with the veto.</p>
<p>Your questions related to promiscuity show that the two-person abortion approval is logistically unfeasible when a woman chooses to have multiple partners over the short period of time during which conception could have occurred.  </p>
<p>How about this?  If a woman lists a man as the father of her unborn child, he has a say in the abortion decision.  If she cannot with definitiveness state the owner of the sperm that has found its way to her womb and therefore she has no father for her child, then she can has the right to make the abortion decision all by herself.  But, she also loses the right to have a variety of guys tested after the baby is born to determine paternity and get child support.  </p>
<p>I am tired of women being portrayed as weak victims of their own sexual choices.  On those ridiculous shows like Maury, I get just as frustrated with the women who slept around without concern for the consequences as I do with the moronic &#8220;men&#8221; who loudly assert their lack of resemblance to the child and tell the audience that the woman with whom they once chose to be intimate has been naked with every dude in town.  Sounds like bad sex decisions are being made all over the place!</p>
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		<title>By: Neo Malthus</title>
		<link>http://moorethoughts.com/2007/08/16/men-should-have-say-in-abortion/#comment-143826</link>
		<dc:creator>Neo Malthus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Aug 2007 18:30:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://moorethoughts.com/2007/08/16/men-should-have-say-in-abortion/#comment-143826</guid>
		<description>As I expected, you would make no abortion the default assumption. So if the male is opposed, he doesn't merely have a say in it, he has a veto.
But how do you necessarily who the other partner is? Ever watch those DNA test shows on Maury Povich or Montel Williams? Sometimes they name four or five different guys as the likely suspect and none of them turns out to be the father.
Suppose the woman names the wrong guy as the father, he does not oppose the abortion, and so she goes through with it, then it turns out that some other guy was the real father and he would have opposed the abortion? How do you determine whether she acted in good faith or not? Are you going to ask her about every single guy she slept with during the relevant period and, if any one of them opposes the abortion, then she can't have one?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As I expected, you would make no abortion the default assumption. So if the male is opposed, he doesn&#8217;t merely have a say in it, he has a veto.<br />
But how do you necessarily who the other partner is? Ever watch those DNA test shows on Maury Povich or Montel Williams? Sometimes they name four or five different guys as the likely suspect and none of them turns out to be the father.<br />
Suppose the woman names the wrong guy as the father, he does not oppose the abortion, and so she goes through with it, then it turns out that some other guy was the real father and he would have opposed the abortion? How do you determine whether she acted in good faith or not? Are you going to ask her about every single guy she slept with during the relevant period and, if any one of them opposes the abortion, then she can&#8217;t have one?</p>
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		<title>By: Sarah</title>
		<link>http://moorethoughts.com/2007/08/16/men-should-have-say-in-abortion/#comment-143813</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Aug 2007 16:49:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://moorethoughts.com/2007/08/16/men-should-have-say-in-abortion/#comment-143813</guid>
		<description>I believe that if either partner is opposed to the abortion, then it should not happen.  

Even if the man wants an abortion, he is still financially obligated to pay for the child the woman chooses to have (see every episode of Maury for examples).  Same goes for the reverse.  If the man does not want the abortion, then the woman can surrender her custodial parental rights once the baby is born.  She is still obligated to provide financial support, though.  

Men and women are equal, right?  Then we need to have equal consequences for the same decision to have sex.  I do understand that the fact that the woman has to carry the child, and that is an unequal burden.  But, that's just a fact of life that cannot be altered.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe that if either partner is opposed to the abortion, then it should not happen.  </p>
<p>Even if the man wants an abortion, he is still financially obligated to pay for the child the woman chooses to have (see every episode of Maury for examples).  Same goes for the reverse.  If the man does not want the abortion, then the woman can surrender her custodial parental rights once the baby is born.  She is still obligated to provide financial support, though.  </p>
<p>Men and women are equal, right?  Then we need to have equal consequences for the same decision to have sex.  I do understand that the fact that the woman has to carry the child, and that is an unequal burden.  But, that&#8217;s just a fact of life that cannot be altered.</p>
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		<title>By: Neo Malthus</title>
		<link>http://moorethoughts.com/2007/08/16/men-should-have-say-in-abortion/#comment-143792</link>
		<dc:creator>Neo Malthus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Aug 2007 13:34:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://moorethoughts.com/2007/08/16/men-should-have-say-in-abortion/#comment-143792</guid>
		<description>We are talking about two votes here. What happens when the woman votes for the abortion and the man votes against it? There is an impasse. Either the man has a veto or his "say" is pretty meaningless.

What if it's the other way around? The man wants an abortion and the woman does not. Do you think the man should have a "say" then?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We are talking about two votes here. What happens when the woman votes for the abortion and the man votes against it? There is an impasse. Either the man has a veto or his &#8220;say&#8221; is pretty meaningless.</p>
<p>What if it&#8217;s the other way around? The man wants an abortion and the woman does not. Do you think the man should have a &#8220;say&#8221; then?</p>
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		<title>By: The Roundtable</title>
		<link>http://moorethoughts.com/2007/08/16/men-should-have-say-in-abortion/#comment-143777</link>
		<dc:creator>The Roundtable</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Aug 2007 12:26:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://moorethoughts.com/2007/08/16/men-should-have-say-in-abortion/#comment-143777</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Men's Say in Abortions&lt;/strong&gt;

Sarah at MooreThoughts has a great post about the say men should have in an abortion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Men&#8217;s Say in Abortions</strong></p>
<p>Sarah at MooreThoughts has a great post about the say men should have in an abortion.</p>
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		<title>By: Sarah</title>
		<link>http://moorethoughts.com/2007/08/16/men-should-have-say-in-abortion/#comment-143710</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Aug 2007 04:38:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://moorethoughts.com/2007/08/16/men-should-have-say-in-abortion/#comment-143710</guid>
		<description>Rachel,

Thanks for the comment.  I read the proposed law and agree with you that it's ridiculous to deny an abortion if, for example, the male contributor to the situation cannot even be found.  That specific law just made me think about the question of the rights of men concerning abortion in general, which is really what I wanted to discuss.  I simply don't buy the responsive argument made by some that it's a woman's body and ultimately her decision alone.  If the sexual partner can indeed be located and he intends to care for the forthcoming child, his opinion does matter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rachel,</p>
<p>Thanks for the comment.  I read the proposed law and agree with you that it&#8217;s ridiculous to deny an abortion if, for example, the male contributor to the situation cannot even be found.  That specific law just made me think about the question of the rights of men concerning abortion in general, which is really what I wanted to discuss.  I simply don&#8217;t buy the responsive argument made by some that it&#8217;s a woman&#8217;s body and ultimately her decision alone.  If the sexual partner can indeed be located and he intends to care for the forthcoming child, his opinion does matter.</p>
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		<title>By: Rachel</title>
		<link>http://moorethoughts.com/2007/08/16/men-should-have-say-in-abortion/#comment-143656</link>
		<dc:creator>Rachel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2007 23:59:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://moorethoughts.com/2007/08/16/men-should-have-say-in-abortion/#comment-143656</guid>
		<description>Sarah,
I appreciate your point, and agree that things probably turn out for the best when two people with some interest in each other's futures can work together. However, the Ohio bill that generated the discussion didn't just give men "a" say, it gave them the final say - no written consent from the man, no abortion, even if the man has no intention of being around if he denies the woman "permission," or if the man can't even be tracked down.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sarah,<br />
I appreciate your point, and agree that things probably turn out for the best when two people with some interest in each other&#8217;s futures can work together. However, the Ohio bill that generated the discussion didn&#8217;t just give men &#8220;a&#8221; say, it gave them the final say - no written consent from the man, no abortion, even if the man has no intention of being around if he denies the woman &#8220;permission,&#8221; or if the man can&#8217;t even be tracked down.</p>
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